SMT fluid substitute

cyclehead · July 23, 2017, 15:18

Ravenol lists their GHA-F fluid as a suitable replacement for Toyota SMT Fluid p/n 08886-02206.
Do not use it!

I did a test with the replacement fluid. The test o-ring swelled up in less than one day.
I have contacted Ravenol with my findings.

m https://i.imgur.com/wPAwfc6.jpg m
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carolineasb · July 23, 2017, 16:25

I think the concensus of opinion is always to use OEM for things like this!

Ardent · July 23, 2017, 18:36

Agreed

1979scotte · July 23, 2017, 18:54

It's not worth the hassle.
OEM all the way.

Carolyn · July 23, 2017, 19:08

Quote from: "cyclehead"Ravenol lists their GHA-F fluid as a suitable replacement for Toyota SMT Fluid p/n 08886-02206.
Do not use it!

I did a test with the replacement fluid. The test o-ring swelled up in less than one day.
I have contacted Ravenol with my findings.

m https://i.imgur.com/wPAwfc6.jpg m
m https://i.imgur.com/uOGK6vq.jpg m
m https://i.imgur.com/V6OxZNn.jpg m

What was the O ring made of? All O rings are not the same. We had to do many a 'materials compatibility' study in the development of our rockets. Some were good for one job, others good for other jobs. Some were total no-no's. It depends on the application.

You conducted a fairly careful experiment, and perhaps you got it right. Do you know what the seals in the system are made of? Was the O ring you used in your experiment made of the same material?

cyclehead · July 24, 2017, 11:39

I used EPDM material. Plus I've rebuilt a few GSA using seals and orings made from EPDM. EPDM is compatible with automotive brake fluid. I use DOT3/castor oil mix in my SMT for two years now. The EPDM orings behaved fine in Toyota fluid, and DOT3 fluid. But exploded in Ravenol fluid. I am still waiting to see what Ravenol says. I suggested they perform their own tests.

I wonder how long Toyota will continue making fluid for our 20 year old cars? I suspect any fluid available today is from old stock. I'm not sure old brake fluid will be free of moisture.

(I always wanted to be a rocket scientist! s:D

s:D )

Carolyn · July 24, 2017, 12:32

Well -fair enough. It would appear that there is a problem. Let us know what Ravenol has to say. (IF anything!).

Sounds like you have the makings of a rocket engineer.

cyclehead · July 24, 2017, 14:22

One week and counting for Ravenols reply. They have been communicative. I see their websites still list GHA-F as a good substitute. We'll see!

cyclehead · July 31, 2017, 13:32

It's been two weeks since I reported the problem to Ravenol. As of this morning, their websites still list this fluid as a good substitute. This morning I sent them a query asking for an update. I know of one Spyder owner that had two GSAs damaged by the fluid (UK), plus one more (besides me) in US with a destroyed SMT system. I also notified MonkeyWrench Racing, who was selling the GHA-F from their website. I think they've removed it now. Has anyone here used the Ravenol GHA-F fluid in their SMT system?

Carolyn · July 31, 2017, 13:43

Thanks for the update. Great work!!!

mr-ed_smt · August 1, 2017, 09:49

I've always used regular DOT4 brake fluid in mine, with no issue. Plenty of users on Spyderchat also seem to do so without issue.

Ardent · August 1, 2017, 16:55

Just for clarity, you use dot 4 "brake fluid" as your "smt fluid"?

mr-ed_smt · August 2, 2017, 09:57

I do. In the hydraulic reservoir, to operate the HPU/GSA. Have done for several years - works perfectly. I've had the SMT system apart several times (no issues with it - it's a track only car so often finds itself in bits for all sorts of reasons!) and always refill with DOT4 (cheap Halfords stuff). As I said, plenty of Spyderchat users seem to do the same with no issue.

cyclehead · September 17, 2017, 09:57

Update: Ravenol have finally removed our SMT fluid from their compatibility list on their websites. Still no reply from them on my requests. No offer to replace my damaged HPU and GSA, no offer to repair my car, and no apologies. And no thanks from Ravenol for identifying their problem for them. I'm still waiting Ravenol!

Carolyn · September 17, 2017, 12:24

It seems to me that you have a very very good case for an action in the County Court. Especially if you have a screenshot of their claims. You've assembled the evidence very thoroughly.
Perhaps the old 'seven day notice' will spur them into action?

cyclehead · September 20, 2017, 13:26

Latest from Ravenol Company - a whole lot of nothing...

https://www.facebook.com/RavenolOils/posts/1135578746586753

fawtytoo · May 3, 2021, 12:00

Quote from: mr-ed_smt on August 1, 2017, 09:49I've always used regular DOT4 brake fluid in mine, with no issue. Plenty of users on Spyderchat also seem to do so without issue.

I've read that using a mix of 92% brake fluid and 8% castor oil is a good idea. The castor oil helping to lubricate.

fawtytoo · May 3, 2021, 16:59

Any idea how much is needed in litres?

1979scotte · May 3, 2021, 17:46

Quote from: fawtytoo on May 3, 2021, 12:00
Quote from: mr-ed_smt on August 1, 2017, 09:49I've always used regular DOT4 brake fluid in mine, with no issue. Plenty of users on Spyderchat also seem to do so without issue.
I've read that using a mix of 92% brake fluid and 8% castor oil is a good idea. The castor oil helping to lubricate.

I'm not sure mixing anything into your brake fluid is a good idea.

Joesson · May 3, 2021, 20:05

Quote from: 1979scotte on May 3, 2021, 17:46
Quote from: fawtytoo on May 3, 2021, 12:00
Quote from: mr-ed_smt on August 1, 2017, 09:49I've always used regular DOT4 brake fluid in mine, with no issue. Plenty of users on Spyderchat also seem to do so without issue.
I've read that using a mix of 92% brake fluid and 8% castor oil is a good idea. The castor oil helping to lubricate.

I'm not sure mixing anything into your brake fluid is a good idea.

If the brake fluid was to be used for it's prime function then absolutely no additives because the car would likely fail to stop when required.
However in the case of the SMT then not so much of a problem because the worst would be that the car would fail to go, so no " danger" to self or others.

fawtytoo · May 3, 2021, 20:31

After some more research on spyderchat (credit to cyclehead), Rolls Royce owners have had to concoct their own mixture as RR don't make it anymore. The castor oil is added to change the brake fluid's viscosity to match the proper stuff.

Dot3 is adequate for the SMT system as Dot4 will absorb more moisture. Approx 91% Dot3 + 9% castor oil. And the castor oil should be 'propoxylated ethylated' as it remains miscible with the brake fluid for longer.

www.spyderchat.com/threads/change-smt-fluid.50625/#post-1571866

Petrus · May 3, 2021, 22:14

I followed the well reseached advise and refreshed the fluid almost immediatley upon gettingthe car.
First flushed it with fresh DOT3, then added 90-92% with 8-10% castor oil.
The fluid which came out was almost as clear by the way.

Would like to change it again this year.
Any source/pointer for 'propoxylated ethylated' castor oil?

fawtytoo · May 3, 2021, 23:26

Quote from: Petrus on May 3, 2021, 22:14Any source/pointer for 'propoxylated ethylated' castor oil?

Not yet. But to correct the research, it might be 'ethoxylated propoxylated'.

fawtytoo · May 5, 2021, 20:45

@Petrus Did you change any of the o rings? Cycleheads tests were performed with EPDM o rings. Just wonder if the OEM ones hold ok.

Petrus · May 5, 2021, 20:57

Quote from: fawtytoo on May 5, 2021, 20:45@Petrus Did you change any of the o rings? Cycleheads tests were performed with EPDM o rings. Just wonder if the OEM ones hold ok.

Not changed anything. So far so good.