MOT fail - high lambda

[BahnStormer]

Last year it failed emissions on HC and CO - replaced all O2 sensors.... so good to see that 12 months later those are SQUEAKY clean.... however it failed on Lambda (reading of 1.1 and 1.11 on the fast idle tests). The tester said that his best guess would be something loose on the exhaust manifold.

Any suggestions?

[Call the midlife!]

Broken flexi ?


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[Carolyn]

Could be an exhaust leak, I put a bit of tissue in some needle nose and offer it around the manifold and exhaust-  If it flutters - leak!

High Lambda means it's running lean.  An air leak after the MAF would be a possible cause.  Or even a leak at the MAF.

Did you clean the MAF prior to MOT?

[jvanzyl]

I reckon that little ding you had a few months ago may have put took much strain the flexi's...

[BahnStormer]

Could be an exhaust leak, I put a bit of tissue in some needle nose and offer it around the manifold and exhaust-  If it flutters - leak!

High Lambda means it's running lean.  An air leak after the MAF would be a possible cause.  Or even a leak at the MAF.

Did you clean the MAF prior to MOT?

Nope - no MAF clean.

I'll check around the manifold for obvious leaks and look into the MAF clean if I can't find anything.

[Carolyn]

Go mad and clean it anyway.. Real easy job.

Two phillips screws and some carb cleaner.  (Don't spray the O ring).

[Ardent]

+1
Esp. The bit in brackets.

[BahnStormer]

Ok, will do.

Definitely some sort of an exhaust leak though - just putting my hand down around the left hand side of the manifold and down that side of the engine I can feel a LOT of air swirling around and smell a lot of exhaust gasses... so I need to find somewhere to work on it. Trying to see if Patrick can fit me in this week.

[BahnStormer]

Patrick is busy until middle of next week at least... anybody else recommended? Otherwise I'm taking it up to the local Kwikfit 

Any recommendations around Crawley / SW London?

Car is fine to drive, but I'd prefer South of London or South of the river at least, especially if I have to leave the car with them for the day!

[jvanzyl]

you could bring it up to mine... got the tools you need, and if it is the two crush rings you can get those from toyota..
We could put it up on the ramps, take the nappy off and have a quick proper look to diagnose if it's flexi or gasket..

[BahnStormer]

I'm going to get an indy near my work to look at it tomorrow. IF that doesn't work / we need parts from Mr.T, I might take you up on that...

And mine is nappy-free, so one less piece to get in the way...

[BahnStormer]

The garage has had a look - he says that there the exhaust manifold is blowing a bit, which has probably just pushed it over the edge, but he says it's not really that bad and they don't want to touch it.

He also said that they test certain cars, especially older Japanese hot hatches and sports-oriented cars on the high idle (~3500rpm) not the standard (~2000-2800rpm?) "as they tend to have their ECU focused on a higher part of the rev range". He said that under those conditions it sails through the Lambda tests.

It all makes sense and he insists it is NOT an MOT fudge and perfectly normal practice, so it will only cost me £40 now, it isn't dodgy/illegal and will keep the MOT bods happy... and gives me time to get it done properly by somebody who know what they're doing

Now to work out who wants to do an MR2 manifold that probably hasn't been touched since the car first went on the road ~12yrs ago...

[jvanzyl]

The garage has had a look - he says that there the exhaust manifold is blowing a tony bit, which has probably just pushed it over the edge, but he says it's not bad and they don't want to touch it.

He also said that they test certain cars, especially older Japanese hot hatches and sports-oriented cars on the high idle (~3500rpm) not the standard (~2000-2800rpm?) "as they tend to have their ECU focused on a higher part of the rev range". He said that under those conditions it sails through the Lambda tests.

It all makes sense and he insists it is NOT an MOT fudge and perfectly normal practice, so it will only cost me £40 now, it isn't dodgy/illegal and will keep the MOT bods happy... and gives me time to get it done properly by somebody who know what they're doing

Now to work out who wants to do an MR2 manifold that probably hasn't been touched since the car first went on the road ~12yrs ago...

You can have my old decatted manifold.. it's sitting in the garage..

[BahnStormer]

You can have my old decatted manifold.. it's sitting in the garage..

Seriously tempting!! Is that a home job to swap it over? If so, how long? Catch you on WhatsApp?

edit: you got me thinking about alternatives.... I found the TRD one.... 

£1150!!!

https://www.fensport.co.uk/parts/toyota/mr2/mk3-1-8-roadster/exhaust-system/zzw30-trd-exhaust-manifold/

[jvanzyl]

You can have my old decatted manifold.. it's sitting in the garage..

Seriously tempting!! Is that a home job to swap it over? If so, how long? Catch you on WhatsApp?

edit: you got me thinking about alternatives.... I found the TRD one.... 

£1150!!!

https://www.fensport.co.uk/parts/toyota/mr2/mk3-1-8-roadster/exhaust-system/zzw30-trd-exhaust-manifold/

Totally an at home job.
Preparation is key though.
Basically dosing the bolts in plusgas for a few days before.

I have spare manifold bolts etc as well.

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[BahnStormer]

Okay - I was about to say "I'm starting to build up a shopping/parts list.... to do the two main exhaust gaskets.".....
Then I got this (complete, in Excel format) from @jvanzyl  - thanks!!

Head to Manifold      TCB
Gasket   17173-22010 (x1)   £13.23 + VAT
Nuts   90179-08228 (x5)   
Studs   90126-08043 (x5)   
Manifold to cat      
Gasket   90917-06065 (x2)   £4.29 each + VAT
Nuts   90179-10070 (x3)   
Studs   90116-10146 (x3)   

Also need....
Plusgas (I've got the WD40 "Penetrating Edition" or something like that... but I've been told to just stick to Plusgas)

[BahnStormer]

Okay:
1) OEM gaskets on order...
2) Erbauer kit (seize bolt/nut remover) and Plusgas on order too
3) ...but I'm having a right pain finding OEM nuts and studs...

I tried the Toyota Offical eBay site (i.e. the one that linked from the Toyota.co.uk parts store), which is where I got the gaskets, but they don't have the part numbers for the other parts.

Any ideas?

[jvanzyl]

Have you tried phoning your local Toyota branch?



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[Gaz mr-s]

3) ...but I'm having a right pain finding OEM nuts and studs...

I tried the Toyota Offical eBay site (i.e. the one that linked from the Toyota.co.uk parts store), which is where I got the gaskets, but they don't have the part numbers for the other parts.

Any ideas?

Yes.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M8-x-40-Manifold-Studs-Double-Ended-Nuts-A2-STAINLESS-STEEL-Inlet-Exhaust/391846876564?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=660845286534&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[BahnStormer]

Have you tried phoning your local Toyota branch?

Nice idea, except they're a bunch of mucking fuppets... my last inspection said "185/55/15 tyre tread depth checked okay"... on all four wheels.... AND they phoned me up and said the brake fluid was overdue and would be dangerously deteriorated and needed to be replaced immediately, despite having been done 4 days earlier with 5.1. A few other classic incompetence things, but those were the lowlights.... basically I won't trust them with the car again... and I'm not sure if I'd even trust them to pick 8 nuts and 8 studs properly....

[BahnStormer]

A quick update - my Cat gasket continued to deteriorate fairly rapidly, ended up with a few days worth of O" sensor warnings (initially something like "O2 sensor slow to respond" for both manifold sensors and then "system too lean" on both.... gaskets done (and three amigo's replaced with new ones too) and it's all cleared up very quickly.

[ManInDandism]

Have you tried phoning your local Toyota branch?

Nice idea, except they're a bunch of mucking fuppets... my last inspection said "185/55/15 tyre tread depth checked okay"... on all four wheels.... AND they phoned me up and said the brake fluid was overdue and would be dangerously deteriorated and needed to be replaced immediately, despite having been done 4 days earlier with 5.1. A few other classic incompetence things, but those were the lowlights.... basically I won't trust them with the car again... and I'm not sure if I'd even trust them to pick 8 nuts and 8 studs properly....

Is possible you may have confused them by using DOT 5.1 rather than the DOT 3 that it specifies on the cap.  I think the tests they do relate to boiling point and as you know, the two operate in a different range of temperatures.  And the car has been out of production for so long that the technician may never have never encountered one and so doesn't know about differing tyre sizes front and back. 

Not trying to defend them at all - just saying!  I think we would expect to know more about our cars than a garage at a base level at least since we are enthusiasts whereas they have to have a passing knowledge of umpteen different Toyota models and all the variants.  Tend to give dealer servicing wide berth myself once a car is out of warranty but have recently ordered nuts and bolts from Toyota (Horsham) looking up part numbers on the EPC and then quoting them.  Costs are eye-watering for what they are but if I'm getting new components fitted I prefer not to use corroded 15 years old ones.       

[BahnStormer]

Have you tried phoning your local Toyota branch?

Nice idea, except they're a bunch of mucking fuppets... my last inspection said "185/55/15 tyre tread depth checked okay"... on all four wheels.... AND they phoned me up and said the brake fluid was overdue and would be dangerously deteriorated and needed to be replaced immediately, despite having been done 4 days earlier with 5.1. A few other classic incompetence things, but those were the lowlights.... basically I won't trust them with the car again... and I'm not sure if I'd even trust them to pick 8 nuts and 8 studs properly....

Is possible you may have confused them by using DOT 5.1 rather than the DOT 3 that it specifies on the cap.  I think the tests they do relate to boiling point and as you know, the two operate in a different range of temperatures.  And the car has been out of production for so long that the technician may never have never encountered one and so doesn't know about differing tyre sizes front and back. 

Not trying to defend them at all - just saying!  I think we would expect to know more about our cars than a garage at a base level at least since we are enthusiasts whereas they have to have a passing knowledge of umpteen different Toyota models and all the variants.  Tend to give dealer servicing wide berth myself once a car is out of warranty but have recently ordered nuts and bolts from Toyota (Horsham) looking up part numbers on the EPC and then quoting them.  Costs are eye-watering for what they are but if I'm getting new components fitted I prefer not to use corroded 15 years old ones.     

Possibly... Not sure how brand new 5.1 would be described as "deteriorated"... or have a higher boiling point?!?

I'd also question how much they're looking that the wheels/tyres if they don't notice different rim sizes... surely if you were checked the tread depth on a 185 width tyre and then a 215, you might twig that one was much wider at least.

I might talk to the Horsham lot... but not bothering with my local one again unless they start selling new MR2's