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Mini supercharger on 1zz

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Carolyn
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:31 pm

This would, therefore, be a #11:
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby jonbill » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:18 pm

It certainly looks done

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:57 pm

Primed the engine and fired it up. No black smoke. Chain tensioner useless... Wondered why I'd left it out when I rebuilt it.... that would have been to remind me to get a new one!!
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby BahnStormer » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:23 am

I was thinking about getting a s'charger on my 1zz... really keen to see how this pans out, both in terms of lessons learned and to see how the drivability has changed - same thinking as you - I'd like a little more instant low- and mid-end torque, but I'm not interested in revving the nuts off it to get the extra power and I want instant throttle response - the idea of a turbo spooling and boost coming in at 3000-4000 rpm mid corner does not appeal!

TBH slightly scared at how long it has taken. Would be interesting to see what you think the end to end time SHOULD be with a full time mechanic on it: I don't have a workshop or even a garage any more, so this needs to be done professionally as I don't think I know anybody with a workshop that can handle a MR2 sitting in the corner for months on end! (please let me know if there's anybody offering to do these types of conversions)...
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby shnazzle » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:56 am

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby 1979scotte » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:50 pm

I don't want to thread hijack but the 7 Motorsports kit is rotrex based which won't really offer much low down and compared to a turbo offers little torque.
It will however make plenty of power and be much easier on engine and gearbox than a turbo or an Eaton blower.
Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby BahnStormer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:08 pm

shnazzle wrote:http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html


Thanks - pricey, but VERY nice!!

1979scotte wrote:Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
.... is what I'm after. Low end torque is nice, but I'd gladly trade some of that earlier turbo boost for instant throttle response and predictability...

I'm guessing that se7en's claims for a 1zz are a little OTT (although they do say you'll also need a new exhaust)....
This will give you 200-215BHP* @ 8 Psi of Boost


Anything close to 200bhp would be plenty!
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby 1979scotte » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:37 pm

BahnStormer wrote:
shnazzle wrote:http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html


Thanks - pricey, but VERY nice!!

1979scotte wrote:Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
.... is what I'm after. Low end torque is nice, but I'd gladly trade some of that earlier turbo boost for instant throttle response and predictability...

I'm guessing that se7en's claims for a 1zz are a little OTT (although they do say you'll also need a new exhaust)....
This will give you 200-215BHP* @ 8 Psi of Boost


Anything close to 200bhp would be plenty!


If any thing I think 7 are being conservative.
No reason to limit the blower to 8psi.
10 psi on a tb2559 turbo is reliable should be more so on a rotrex.
Very little parasitic loss good efficiency low charge temperature and no torque spike is all good.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:41 pm

BahnStormer
Those claims are reasonable with a good exhaust and tuning with a piggyback/stand alone ecu. And it'll make very good torque, just smoothly and linearly, not all low down and meaty like the Eaton.

The se7en Motorsports kit uses the bigger 30-94 charger which is good for lots of top end power on the 2zz or a fully built 1zz but more importantly, with the appropriate restrictor on the inlet and smaller pulley size it will make great boost at low rpm and be restricted from boosting high into the revs thus limiting maximum power but having loads of low down torque, similar to an Eaton but in a smoother delivery from about 2-2.5k rpm.

Some very interesting reading on this on the Spyderchat forum, an some neat installations there also. I agree the price is high though, and would want to get the bones of the kit and do a build myself. Ideally I would locate the charger in place of the AC Pump, which most guys have done in the Spyderchat threads.

Scotte
The Rotrex will make as much torque low down as an Eaton if you want to build it that way, depends on what you want.

Carollynne
Any updates for us?
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby 1979scotte » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:15 pm

MrT wrote:Scotte
The Rotrex will make as much torque low down as an Eaton if you want to build it that way, depends on what you want.

Carollynne


Hi Tyler
I am using a BOV to limit the boost on my rotrex c30-94 so as to reach maximum boost in the midrange rather than peak revs.
She won't make the same torque as an Eaton at low revs at least I don't think so.
Roots type blowers are positive displacement make consistent boost through the rev range.
As in you get 5 psi at idle and 5psi at max RPM and 5psi everywhere in between.
They just produce massive heat at higher revs which effects efficiency.
A Rotrex is centrifugal type more revs = more boost and although I won't know it for a fact until I actually fit it I don't think it will be making any boost at 900 rpm.
This is probably over simplified but it's how I understand it.
Have a good book about superchargers lying about somewhere need to re read it.
How is your project coming along?
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:31 pm

Carolynne
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, tell me to shut it if off topic.

Hi Scotte
Yes, I'm well versed in the function of the 2 types of chargers. The trick is your BOV will be blowing lots of bypass at high rpm if your charger is not restricted. But restricting it means you can run the Rotrex at a higher rpm meaning it reaches decent speeds lower in the revs then the restrictor (a smaller inlet trumpet insert) limits the volume/flow of air into the charger meaning it cannot output too much air and the BOV has an easier time controlling the flow and limits the back-flow of air.
Assuming your BOV returns before the charger but after the MAF this is not detrimental as the returned air will cycle through the Rotrex but the heat will build up if it is happening a lot as the same air is receiving more and more heat. This will happen to varying degrees depending on your application so may be insignificant for you but we won't know until your build is ready to start, or understand fully the spec of your build, not for this thread.
Note, the BOV is beneficial (thought not essential at low boost) to control closed throttle boost as the SC keeps pumping at the rate of engine rpm regardless of throttle opening unlike a Turbo so that is good. Make sure the BOV isn't cycling back upstream of the MAF as it may fool the ECU into thinking there is more air entering the engine or be harder to control. That is also why it is not vented to atmosphere (aside from turning the car into a job mobile...).

Happy to discuss further outside Carolynne's thread.

Carolynne, thinking about it, was there a logic for you using a BOV at lower PSI? I think you are running ~8PSI currently, but might have missed a change somewhere.
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Tyler

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:31 am

In my experimental car, the BOV is acting as a bypass valve, to deal with rapid shutting of the throttle (as in the original Mini application). As you assumed, it returns to the input of the supercharger. The MAF is upstream of the return. There is quite a discussion of the BOV earlier in the thread. In my case, the whole point of the exercise is to give more oomph lower down the rev range.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby lamcote » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:48 am

Thought I might chip in ;

A turbo setup uses a BOV and a wastegate valve. (In the Mclaren P1 vids you hear the wastegate making a chirping noise and the BOV makes the whoofling noise). The BOV protects the turbo when you lift off the throttle, the wastegate limits boost by diverting exhaust gas.

An Eaton supercharger needs a BOV but not a wastegate, indeed a wastegate won't work at all with a positive displacement supercharger. They do however usually have a bypass valve for part throttle operation when boost isn't required. This is separate from the BOV.

Also an Eaton supercharger won't actually produce max boost at very low revs, it should in theory, but it suffers from inefficient rotor sealing at low revs so an engine won't see full boost until typically 2-3000 revs, but it does still provide a proportion of its max boost even at tick over so you will still be getting much more boost than with a Rotrex or turbo at that bottom end.

A Rotrex needs a BOV and I believe it may be possible to fit a wastegate to a Rotrex however, it is far preferable to operate a wastegate on a turbo by diverting exhaust gas, not inlet air, so most if not all wastegates do this. With a Rotrex you would obviously only be able to divert inlet air in some form of wastegate. I'm not sure if such a thing is available? A BOV is too much of a blunt instrument to use as a wastegate as it is either open or closed.

I know Rotrex setups do use restrictor plates but to get significant low end boost the restrictor would be so small you would severely choke off high end boost and be running very inefficiently.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby 1979scotte » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:50 am

Should take this elsewhere.
Total thread hijack.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:22 am

So to return to topic, lesson is Carolynne knows what to do and this is an example of a GOOD well thought out installation, with creative solutions for the packaging issues of the MR2.

Well done so far Carolynne.


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Tyler
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Current daily driver: Sable '05 Roadster 'Red' edition, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, TRD bracing, MSW alloys, Leather interior, plus & warm, Audio install & sub.
Project: Lemon yellow MR-S import (JDM) with 1ZZ, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, BC Racing coilovers (low), TRD bracing, MSW alloys, stripped out interior now my mule for an SC build on the ICE and mock-up of my Electric conversion and rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:28 am

Carolynne

Just looking over your thread and pics, would there be mileage in turning the SC over and plumbing the outlet under the engine beside the sump and into a charge cooler or direct to the intake? Seems a simpler clearer route to me, if a little longer. And a bit further from the heat of the exhaust. Just an idea, wanted to ask your thoughts on it.

Thanks


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Tyler
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Current daily driver: Sable '05 Roadster 'Red' edition, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, TRD bracing, MSW alloys, Leather interior, plus & warm, Audio install & sub.
Project: Lemon yellow MR-S import (JDM) with 1ZZ, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, BC Racing coilovers (low), TRD bracing, MSW alloys, stripped out interior now my mule for an SC build on the ICE and mock-up of my Electric conversion and rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 am

I suppose it could be done. Not sure how the mounting points would work out. The lubrication of the supercharger is (it seems to me) pretty much designed to be one way up. I'm not sure it would be happy upside down. The present route to the intake is as a simple as... Heat is dealt with by a fan drawing the heat upwards. Going underneath would leave very little ground clearance, when you think about it. Turning it over would also just swap the heat from exhaust issue to the intake of the supercharger. Same net calories going in.
There's a lot to be said for a Rotrex - it's the expense that put me off.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 am

Good points, thanks.


cheers

Tyler
Cheers

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Current daily driver: Sable '05 Roadster 'Red' edition, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, TRD bracing, MSW alloys, Leather interior, plus & warm, Audio install & sub.
Project: Lemon yellow MR-S import (JDM) with 1ZZ, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, BC Racing coilovers (low), TRD bracing, MSW alloys, stripped out interior now my mule for an SC build on the ICE and mock-up of my Electric conversion and rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby 1979scotte » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:25 pm

Carolyn wrote:There's a lot to be said for a Rotrex - it's the expense that put me off.


Agreed.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:04 am

To sum up. The supercharger is on. It works. It gives the low-end improvement I was looking for. It needs to go on a dyno to be properly set up, but that will have to wait a while (watching pennies).
If anyone wants to copy the set-up, you're welcome to come and have a good look, take measurements for brackets and exhaust and have copies of the files for the project.
In my opinion, the idea is pretty much proven out, though dyno work with a better ECU than I'm presently using would be need to get the final optimum result.
Biggest challenge would be reproducing the special pulley we had to make, though one could simply measure and take to a service with a CNC lathe.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby shnazzle » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:13 am

I do wonder why the EMB doesn't work for you but others have run pretty hefty turbo power with it.

It's not the best solution obviously, but you'd think it'd do the trick
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:27 am

It probably will. I'll let you know when we've done the dyno. It has its limitations. It will never be optimal (because of the things it can't do) but probably acceptable. Hell the car's running ok with it.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Carolynne
From post 658 ish, are you using the 105mm pulley and have you measured actual boost? Would the car not run on stock ECU at that boost?
How many pennies are needed for the Dyno? I'll contribute for the research benefit.


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Tyler
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Current daily driver: Sable '05 Roadster 'Red' edition, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, TRD bracing, MSW alloys, Leather interior, plus & warm, Audio install & sub.
Project: Lemon yellow MR-S import (JDM) with 1ZZ, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, BC Racing coilovers (low), TRD bracing, MSW alloys, stripped out interior now my mule for an SC build on the ICE and mock-up of my Electric conversion and rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby jvanzyl » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:36 pm

I'm happy to contribute to the Dyno fund as well...
It'd be great to see what the kit can do and be incredibly useful for others who want to go down the same route...

Oh and plus the are a few us running (or wish we were) EMB so the map would be a good place to start for those wishing to leverage it if they went down the route..

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:10 pm

Thanks for the offers, guys. It will be a while. Not wanting to make a big deal, but health not cooperating....This project is going to have to stand while my geriatric skeleton is giving me problems.
Yes running 105 mm pulley. Boost around 8psi... It's not legal on the street, so it's not really been up to temperature and run hard, just a couple of short local runs. Hard to justify tax and insurance and MOT at this stage.
Yes it will run on standard ECU - to a point.
If someone wants to take the idea forward, I suggest copying what we've done to this point and taking it from there..
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby MrT » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Thanks Carolynne
Hope you feel better soon.


cheers

Tyler
Cheers

Tyler

Current daily driver: Sable '05 Roadster 'Red' edition, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, TRD bracing, MSW alloys, Leather interior, plus & warm, Audio install & sub.
Project: Lemon yellow MR-S import (JDM) with 1ZZ, AEM cold air intake, PPE 4-1 exhaust header and performance CAT, stock silencer, BC Racing coilovers (low), TRD bracing, MSW alloys, stripped out interior now my mule for an SC build on the ICE and mock-up of my Electric conversion and rebody with a fibreglass replica of Porsche 550 Spyder.

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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby BahnStormer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:48 pm

Carolyn wrote:Thanks for the offers, guys. It will be a while. Not wanting to make a big deal, but health not cooperating....This project is going to have to stand while my geriatric skeleton is giving me problems.
Yes running 105 mm pulley. Boost around 8psi... It's not legal on the street, so it's not really been up to temperature and run hard, just a couple of short local runs. Hard to justify tax and insurance and MOT at this stage.
Yes it will run on standard ECU - to a point.
If someone wants to take the idea forward, I suggest copying what we've done to this point and taking it from there..


All the best with the health and let us know if you need to take a collection for the dyno research :)
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In progress: hardtop search :?
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby alancsalt » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:03 am

Smooth pulleys - smooth side of belt, Grooved pulleys - grooved side of belt. The pic looks like the idler pulley has grooved side facing it? These belts come in a range of lengths, so you'd want best match for this, maybe?

serpentine belt.jpg


Am I talking through my hat?

Ah, health.. shame.. this was interesting. Take care.
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Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz

Postby Carolyn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:21 am

The extra idler pulley is indeed smooth side to smooth side. It sits on top of the belt to guide it down past the tensioner (The supercharger pulley sits a tad high). Grooves on grooves too!! The belt length is spot-on.

It ain't over.... yet.

The fact is the supercharger is in, working reliably and making boost. All the systems are in and working. The thing runs and revs. So if the question is 'can it be done?', the answer is yes.

Here's a pic of the idler (not a brilliant one, I admit):
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