Project run Wabbit run ... probably not 56k friendly

[Anonymous]

The other factor you do need to take into consideration is the different dyno machines, this is the first time that both our cars have been on the same machine, not sure what dyno you used Chris so I wouldn't read to much into your differences - look at the drop I experienced when I checked the plots from Hypersport compared with Noble.

Interesting comment about the sound though, never thought of it that way before, but then again I've got a different sound due to the C-One engine damper.

Rob.

[ChrisGB]

The other factor you do need to take into consideration is the different dyno machines, this is the first time that both our cars have been on the same machine, not sure what dyno you used Chris so I wouldn't read to much into your differences - look at the drop I experienced when I checked the plots from Hypersport compared with Noble.

Interesting comment about the sound though, never thought of it that way before, but then again I've got a different sound due to the C-One engine damper.

Rob.

It is the shape of the torque curve that is surprising. The 1zz is a fairly asthmatic engine with good mid range, but always a drop off at the top end. This one is showing a steady climb to the top end. If you look between 3000 and 4500 rpm, the differences are pretty large. Your graph is showing a pretty much normal curve (though higher up than most N/A cars out there). Nic's graph shows an unfamiliar shape for this engine. The earlier graph for the same car running pre Zero manifold and Cams is as would be expected. Seeing as ignition timing will have been optimised and would be little affected by a change of cams, likewise with mixture across the rev range, the most obvious place to look is with valve timing.

I very much doubt that anything is mechanically wrong. The engine is making good torque higher up and if it were a mechanical issue, or any kind of electrical or fuelling fault, that would be very unlikely.

Chris

[Wabbitkilla]

Of course one difference this time is that i specified i wanted to pass emissions... if that makes a difference.

[ChrisGB]

Of course one difference this time is that i specified i wanted to pass emissions... if that makes a difference.

Really should not in any way.

[mrzwei]

Ok, if this in the wrong place or drifts too much then please move or delete.
The mods described here are the sort of thing I'm looking to do to my 2. I was thinking of doing up an old classic and then realised that I was probably driving something that was worth keeping (feel free to be sick at this point). What I'm looking for is a successful menu of what to do to an n/a engine. In my days with the 'A' series it would have been:

100 thou off the head
larger inlet valves / stronger springs
731 higher lift / longer duration cam
bunch of bananas free flow exhaust matched to the head
Webber carb
There may be more but I can't remember, but would get towards 100bhp (yes really).

What I've got is:
bog standard engine
che manifold
generic unichip
induction kit

What I'm after is a proven menu like the 'A' series one that gives 'x' hp / torque from n/a modifications. The cam mod looks good and maybe the head needs to come off, the inlet and exhaust may need modification  etc but if someone can outline a package then great. I guess that all of the info is in the replies  and Chris's review in particular gives choices in terms of what you want from the car.
So menus please or tell me to go forth

[ChrisGB]

This should be moved as it is drifting markedly.

What I'm looking for is a successful menu of what to do to an n/a engine. In my days with the 'A' series it would have been:

100 thou off the head

There is nowhere near enough space above the piston to do this, but there is some room. Gain would be relatively small compared to cost.

larger inlet valves / stronger springs

The engine is long stroke / relatively narrow bore. The valve seats are specially designed and very narrow. There is little room in the head to make a significant gain in valve size. Reprofiled valves may be an option.

731 higher lift / longer duration cam

Crower is the known option here. Stage 1 for mid range and some top end benefit. Seems to be around 5 - 10bhp gain with fat midrange, stock valve springs, stock rev limit (or near). Stage 2 and 3 give progressively more power at higher revs. Valve springs need changing and some sort of ecu rev limit change, and probably beefed up rods and pistons, particularly for stage 3.

bunch of bananas free flow exhaust matched to the head

Two best options for power are the Zero and the PPE. Zero is 4 into 2 into 1, UK sourced stainless steel, PPE is 4 into 1 USA sourced ceramic coated mild steel.

Webber carb

All done with wires and computers these days.

What I've got is:
bog standard engine
che manifold
generic unichip
induction kit

What I'm after is a proven menu like the 'A' series one that gives 'x' hp / torque from n/a modifications. The cam mod looks good and maybe the head needs to come off, the inlet and exhaust may need modification  etc but if someone can outline a package then great. I guess that all of the info is in the replies  and Chris's review in particular gives choices in terms of what you want from the car.
So menus please or tell me to go forth

If you are staying with the Che manifold, you will be looking to max out around 153bhp with remapping, free flow exhaust (stock exhaust limits power gains), inlet mods etc. Moving to the Zero or PPE manifold could net you around 160bhp with correct mapping, at the cost of a little mid range in the case of the PPE. Adding stage 1 cams to this sees you up to just under 170bhp.

There is a huge amount written about the NA mods and their effectiveness, with dyno plots too. Look for threads on my car, FG Robs, read all of this thread and there are a few others too, all giving a lot of information. Look for SJSpitz N/A thread for bigger budget possibilities. Therein lies the key. How much do you have to spend?

I have come to the conclusion that if power is your goal, a turbo kit gives best bang for buck now they are close to £2000. However, these come with their own setup complexities and added weight. Staying N/A has its benefits, which I have kept to so far, but the returns are smaller. Spending more on the chassis is another way to make it a better drivers car.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Maybe we should have a sticky for performance mods and the figures achieved (Proven), in fact it should be 2 one for N/A and the other for Turbo, I certainly don't mind listing everything - mods what do you think.

Rob.

[ChrisGB]

Maybe we should have a sticky for performance mods and the figures achieved (Proven), in fact it should be 2 one for N/A and the other for Turbo, I certainly don't mind listing everything - mods what do you think.

Rob.

Excellent idea. I am certainly happy to contribute.

Chris

[markiii]

sounds like a good idea Chris

[ChrisGB]

sounds like a good idea Chris

Would like to take the credit but it was Robs idea. Will knock some info together when I get home.

Chris

[markiii]

that will teach me to type whilst having half my brain elsehwere

good ide Rob  :-) :-) :-)

[Anonymous]

that will teach me to type whilst having half my brain elsehwere

good ide Rob  :-) :-) :-)

Cheers Mark.  s:D s:D  

I've put something up to start the ball rolling, if acceptble then if everyone can follow the same format keeping the information the same it will make things easier for others to understand, suggest that this later stuff be removed from this thread just to keep it correct for Nic.

[muffdan]

I'll start a similar formatted one for blown setups

[Wabbitkilla]

Small update for you chaps...

At the weekend I enlisted the help of Ste and we raised the ride height by 10mm, I was catching a lot of crap under the car and scrapes were appearing on the chassis rails. Plus the new wheels are larger than standard so I wanted to make sure they looked right in the arches and didn't have any clearance problems. We also fitted a pair of pillowball topmounts to the rear BC coilovers. All in all handling is improved and not clenching my butt over every speed hump brings a bit more relaxed driving.

Today I had tyres fitted to the new wheels and put them on at lunchtime;


The wheels are OZ Ultraleggera SR.
16x7 ET37 Front
17x7 ET37 Rear.
Tyres are 195x40x16 and 215x40x17 Marangoni Zeta Linea.
Nuts are TPI Forged racing coloured red.
Tyre valves are surface fit low profile.

It's all VERY RED, but I like it.
Hard to say what the effect on handling is as it's early days yet, but the wheels are pretty light.

I do have a problem with a Megan trailing arm on the NSR, the pillow ball is failing and knocking.
Megan's prices have gone up and I'm not impressed with it only surviving two years so I've ordered replacements from Che for half Megan's price ... I'll see how they last.

[FGrob]

Looking good Nic - I like the multi spoke design as you know.  s:D s:D    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I know what you mean about ground clearance, I'm going to increase mine this year, the few miles I've actually done has resulted in some not so welcome dents.

I'm going to refurb the Megans this year as well, might buy a spare set just in case.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Rob.

[Wabbitkilla]

Resurrecting this now as we are at 10 years old and 115000 miles.

The engine has started sounding a bit chain rattly since about 100k and started using oil when being thrashed. Regular normal driving doesn't see much use, but it's not something I'm comfortable with. So I ordered the parts and booked with Spit and Spitstop for covered working area and a mate to work with. Before starting we compression tested the engine...
1. 195psi
2. 195psi
3. 202psi
4. 195psi
All safely within spec, but interesting result for no.3.

Yesterday we stripped the rear end to the point of engine removal.



Today we got the engine out



And the head off



What have we found d so far?
1. Chain is stretched beyond take up of the tensioner.
2. Water pump seal had begun to seep into the engine mount next to it.
3. Oil pooling against the back of the inlet valves suggesting the stem oil seals are leaking.
4. The bores are quite well polished so we intend to hone the cylinders.
5. Piston tops are in pretty good shape, not much in the way of deposits.
6. Cylinder crowns are also in pretty good shape, light deposits on the valves.
7. Coolant was very clean, it's been in a couple of years.
8. Oil is mucky, it's been getting mucky very quickly since around 100k suggesting leaking oil control rings.
9. Very pongy smell over overloaded oil when dismantling the head, I intend to fit an oil cooler to help with this.

Tomorrows plans are...
1. Remove pistons and rods to assess the stated for the big ends, rings, and pistons and compare with the new pistons I've bought. If the pistons are obviously different then I have plans to fit the new design pistons with complete rings.
2. Deliver the injectors for cleaning and testing.
3. Collect sealant for the new sump pan.
4. Remove valve springs and stem seals.
5. Lots of cleaning off deposits, casings, and mating surfaces.
6. Grind in valves.
7. Cylinder hone.

Plenty of coffee breaks and surviving being old and creaky.
Will have to see the state of pistons and rings before deciding on other tasks.
I do need to order new castle nuts for the drive shafts, a new bolt for the flywheel pulley and possibly a new flywheel pulley as the one we've taken off is pretty crusty.

[nathanMR2]

Good work nic. Nice to see the progress of this.

I've set about removing my turbo today and its a lot of hard work. Did you have any issues with nuts or bolts?

[Wabbitkilla]

Only problems so far have been the drive shaft crown nuts bing pains to get off ... The drivers side has never been removed, and one earth point bolt sheared in the nsr suspension turret. All quite surprising really.

[spit]

And we both stink of Plusgas  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Wabbitkilla]

The three amigoes actually came off like a dream   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[loadswine]

Now there's a status Ste!  s:) s:)  Be interesting to see those pistons, when they come out.

[StuC]

Big task you guys have undertaken. Kudos to you both. I hope the pistons and big ends are still in good shape.  :-) :-) :-)

[Wabbitkilla]

Piston 1


Piston 2


Piston 3


Piston 4


Will have them out tomorrow for a proper look, but you can see the tops are remarkably clean for doing 115000 miles.
What you can't see properly is the amount of reflection in the cylinder walls, they're very polished!

[AmeR]

Looking like a fun project there, Nic!
Gutted I'm not about to get involved and return the favour of dismantling and reassembling to all hours!!  s:( s:(  

I hope everything goes well though, and you should get plenty more years out of that engine after all this!!  s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:

[fretlessfender]

Internals look pretty good! For comparison, mine was using a bit of oil at 96,000 - clear signs of oil on the pistons (below).

and

The timing chain was stretched to the point where I had to recount the links to check, so replaced that and the slippers too, although they didn't seem too bad.
I went the wimps route and put in the Toyota Europe short engine from CTP - too good a price!
Maxbore tb, gutted pre-cats, Pipercross filter and Markiii pipe (to come). Matt's underbody brace fitted.
All very nice!
Next stage will be the SP 200 turbo - the torque profile looks just right for the car with this kit, but that's probably for next year.
Have fun!